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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=646552716-05062006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Well that's the difference between you and I. I see the
conflict as irresolvable, and my personal safety is what I care about. It is
often more safe for me to be "disrespectful" than
"respectful".</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org
[mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Anne Wolfe<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 05, 2006 12:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Boston Critical Mass<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [*BCM*] The movement that divides us
<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=521071316-05062006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>The eternal circle. As the more you (and others) run
the lights and are disrespectful, the more you're going to get honked at,
etc. Someone has to take the first step - why can't it be
you?</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org
[mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Justin Wong<BR><B>Sent:</B> 05 June 2006 17:04<BR><B>To:</B> 'Boston
Critical Mass'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [*BCM*] The movement that divides us
<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><DEFANGHTML_SPAN
class=060380316-05062006>"<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>As
long as I'm getting honked at, told to get off the road, doored, barnstormed,
flipped off, and whatever, I'm going to run those goddamned
lights."</FONT></DEFANGHTML_SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000
size=3><DEFANGHTML_SPAN class=060380316-05062006></DEFANGHTML_SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><DEFANGHTML_SPAN
class=060380316-05062006> ^^^ My sentiments
exactly!</DEFANGHTML_SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><DEFANGHTML_SPAN
class=060380316-05062006></DEFANGHTML_SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><DEFANGHTML_SPAN
class=060380316-05062006>Justin</DEFANGHTML_SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org
[mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Pete Stidman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 05, 2006 11:42 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Boston Critical Mass<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [*BCM*] The movement that divides us
<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>I think these points are getting all confused. <BR><BR>Wreckless
bicyclists are one thing, and let us remember that there are wreckless drivers
of any vehicle. <BR><BR>Running red lights as a cyclist is entirely another. It
can be done just as safely as Jaywalking, which, let us also remember, is
completely illegal. <BR><BR>What a cyclist is, regardless of what some lawbook
says, is an undecided, unanswered question in the US. There obviously is no
universally accepted norm about when to cross a red light or stop sign, and I
would say the bigger tendency is to not act like a vehicle, but to act like a
pedestrian when crossing the road. <BR><BR>BUT none of this is important at all
right now. I think the whole argument is a huge distraction from the real
problem, which is cars. Compare pedestrian deaths by car to pedestrian deaths by
bicycle and you'll quickly see what I mean. <BR><BR>These ideas in the biking
community come as a result of car drivers in positions of power saying to bike
advocacy groups, "Well hey, if you expect to get us to teach drivers about
cyclists, cyclists better get their act together." and then activists parroting
that back to others and blaming cyclists for the fact that the streets aren't
safe. <BR><BR>IT"S A FALSE ARGUMENT. And it's divisive. I have to hand it to the
powers that be, it's a neat trick. <BR><BR>How it really happens:<BR><BR>Any
place you go that has laws that protect cyclists, bike lanes etcetera,
Bicyclists stop at the stop lights. Like Boulder Colorado for instance. Bikes
stop at all stop signs and lights, even 4-ways, BUT, in those cities, when a
cyclist pulls up to a full up four way stop, 3 cars and them, the three car
drivers immediately look to the bike to go, regardless of which order they
arrived in, an automatic bike right-of-way. <BR><BR>In that situation, a cyclist
doesn't mind following every law. The law and the norms respect them. Bicyclists
are recognized as having a stronger right of way than cars. <BR><BR>It's not the
weak one (bicyclist) who has to give first, it's the strong one (car). It is a
rule of nature that the weak one does not have as large an effect on the system.
If you want systemic change, you go for changes that are strong, not weak. In
other words, the bully has more chance of changing the system than the bullied.
<BR><BR>As long as I'm getting honked at, told to get off the road, doored,
barnstormed, flipped off, and whatever, I'm going to run those goddamned lights.
And that is something that is so deep in me and hundreds of other cyclists who
have grown to hate cars, police, and road planners that no cycling advocacy
group in the world could ever change it without getting at the root cause behind
it—cars. <BR><BR>Getting pissed at cyclists who run reds is like telling
people who are poor to quit complaining about it and work for minimum wage, if
they do they'll get rich. Yeah fucking right.
<BR><BR>-Pete<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
<red@mit.edu></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
defanghtml_style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Hi!
I'm going to engage you (and anyone else) in discussion on this topic,<BR>and
I'm going to assume you don't mind since you entered into discussion<BR>about
it on a large public mailing list.<BR><BR>On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 07:00:28AM
-0700, turtle wrote:<BR>> Boston Critical Mass
<LIST@BOSTONCRITICALMASS.ORG>wrote:<BR>> > I stop at red lights, look
all around me, then if it is safe, I go. The right<BR>> > of way should
be as follows: Pedestrians, Powered wheel chairs, Cyclists,<BR>> >
Vespas, Cars. (notice i did not mention suv's). Pedestrians can cross
streets<BR>> > any time they want so long as it is safe, I don't see why
cyclists can't cross<BR>> > intersections at red lights when it is safe
for everyone. <BR>> <BR>> The problem with this is it's not reality. In
reality, in the Western<BR>> World, there are traffic laws that generally
don't descriminate against<BR>> different types of vehicle operators. Your
own plan for traffic law may<BR>> well be a good one, but it's simply not
reality right now. So, when you<BR>> disobey the actual traffic laws it
shows the rest of us that you have no<BR>> respect for others, and gives
bicyclists a bad name. Is that the<BR>> impression you are looking to
express?<BR><BR>Your second point here, about respect, is very good, but I
would argue<BR>that if 60% of cyclists are running red lights (number pulled
from an<BR>arbitrary statistic in the article, but it doesn't seem too
off-base<BR>from my experience), running red lights is reality; the law
doesn't <BR>define what is real or what is safe, it defines what is
legal.<BR><BR>To further the point about reality, in the past week, I was
stopped<BR>for running a red light in a pack of five or six cyclists on
Mass<BR>Ave (pedestrian signal, no one coming), but a coworker of mine
was<BR>specifically _told_ by a cop to run a red light two blocks down
six<BR>hours earlier. I'm not defending or attacking either action, just
<BR>emphasizing that law doesn't mean reality.<BR><BR>> If you really
believe that your traffic regulation is better, then<BR>> promote it to
everyone and get it passed into law, or at least accepted<BR>> by society.
In the meantime, if you have respect for others, they will<BR>> have
respect for you, both on the roads and in the political arena. <BR>> Even
if you don't agree with others, showing respect for their beliefs<BR>> and
traditions gives you far more power than discounting them does.<BR><BR>This is
absolutely true. But in today's society, lobbying for legislation<BR>and
behavior changes is often a full-time job and requires more effort
than<BR>many people have to put in. What, then, for those of us (well, I'm
being <BR>dishonest here by putting myself in this group, honestly) without
the <BR>resources to do these things?<BR><BR>I could also go off on a rant
about how cyclists don't get any respect<BR>from drivers, or pedestrians, or
police, but your response would be<BR>"Maybe you should respect them, and then
they will respect you" and I<BR>think you're absolutely right. (Unfortunately
I'm not sure that it works,<BR>but getting respect by being disrespectful
works even less, most of the time.)<BR><BR>> > The interview paints a
picture that all cyclists blindly run red lights and<BR>> > aim for
small children... <BR>> <BR>> Are you sure? I got a very different
picture from the article. I read<BR>> that the author believes that only a
small number of cyclsits are<BR>> really abusive while most others, such as
the author himself, are<BR>> simply not aware of how dangerous their
driving may be.<BR><BR>I agree with you here.<BR><BR>> > Somehow I think
there is an<BR>> > over protective mother who's child was nearly hit by
a bike, and now she must<BR>> > start a crusade against all cyclists to
prevent it from ever happening again. <BR>> <BR>> Are you implying that
kids SHOULD be hit or scared? Should parents just<BR>> sit down and shut up
when illegal and dangerous behavior threatens their<BR>> kids? Should we
just chain our kids to the sofa until they are 16 and<BR>> can drive
themselves in armored vehicles to school and work?<BR>> <BR>> I'm sure
you don't really think that!<BR><BR>No, but our kids should be exposed to and
prepared for reality, which right<BR>now includes a lot of cyclists running
red lights. I agree with your point <BR>overall, which is the attempt to
change reality by encouraging cyclists<BR>to stop running red lights.
<BR><BR>> All cyclists, and motorists, and skateboardists, and horseback
riders,<BR>> and everyone else should be respectful of kids who are using
the<BR>> roadways. Vehicles of all sizes can easilly be quite dangerous,
and<BR>> the operators of said vehicles are ultimately the only ones who
can be<BR>> responsible for avoiding crashes and other dangerous incidents.
We are<BR>> the adults here... Well, there are probably some younger folks
on this<BR>> list, too, so maybe you aren't an adult, so maybe you have an
excuse<BR>> for not taking responsiblity for yourself. Anyway for those of
us who<BR>> are adults, we need to take responsibility for our own
behavior, and<BR>> that includes being respectful of other people's
rights.<BR><BR>I think most people who will actually participate in a
discussion on this<BR>matter believe that they are taking responsibility for
their behavior, and<BR>even being respectful of other people's rights. I know
I do. <BR><BR>> > If it were a car that nearly<BR>> > hit a kid,
there would be no crusade, just a woman with a lawsuit against that<BR>>
> ONE driver, not ALL car drivers.<BR>> <BR>> I beg to differ. Have
you ever heard of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. <BR>> The message is, in
fact, aimed at ALL drivers.<BR>> <BR>> Also, as you may have noticed,
it's not just a single incident. It's a<BR>> trend. Seen not just in
England, but in the US, too. I think the<BR>> problem is that society, the
government, and the educational system<BR>> hasn't taken cycling seriously.
People aren't tought that bikes are<BR>> respectable vehicles on the roads
that are subject to the same traffic<BR>> laws as any other vehicle on the
roads. So, unfortunately, many<BR>> cyclists either don't know how to bike
respectfully, or see bikes as<BR>> symbols of rebellion against the system.
And non-cyclists, too, don't<BR>> get the message that cyclists are the
same as they are, so they treat<BR>> cyclists as unwelcome outsiders on the
roads. In either case, you get<BR>> dangerous (unintentional or
intentional) driving by everyone. The only<BR>> cure I've seen is to
promote the Same Roads, Same Rules, Same Rights<BR>> idea. I, myself, try
to impress upon my students the idea that biking<BR>> is a normal and
respectable way to travel.<BR><BR>There are many potential solutions; yours is
probably the most reasonable<BR>(as compared to "burn all cars," "bike paths
everywhere," "separate laws<BR>for cyclists," &c.) though I'm personally
not convinced it's as safe or<BR>as efficient as the way people bike now.
Realistically, cyclists are not<BR>the same as cars. We don't weigh two tons
and, under normal conditions,<BR>ride lower than the speed limit and
significantly lower than the actual<BR>maximum traffic speed. Stopping
distance, wear and tear on the roads,<BR>ability to handle different kinds of
construction (did anyone else take a<BR>fall on the gravel<->pavement
ridges in Porter Square a month or so ago?),<BR>other things are all different
as well. Though I don't feel qualified<BR>to give an answer to it, I think
whether or not cars and cyclists should<BR>have to follow the same rules
should be an open question.<BR><BR>I appreciate the time you took to write
this, though, and the thought<BR>you've obviously put into it (and I agree
with you in many
places).<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>-r.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Boston
Critical Mass mailing
list<BR>list@bostoncriticalmass.org<BR>http://bostoncriticalmass.org/list<BR>To
unsubscribe email
list-unsubscribe@bostoncriticalmass.org</LIST@BOSTONCRITICALMASS.ORG></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Check
out my blog at http://www.petestidman.com .<BR>You can read my latest stories,
connect to non-commercial internet radio and browse recent stories about the
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