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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=868215116-05062006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Yes. I think there are certain traffic patterns or drivers
I need to get away from to stay safe. For instance MBTA
buses.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org
[mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Jameson Bull<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 05, 2006 12:33 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Boston Critical Mass<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [*BCM*] The movement that divides
us<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Is running red lights really in the best interest of your personal
safety? I'm all about "sticking it to the man" but I at least like to see a car
coming before I turn into an impromptu hood ornament. <BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 6/5/06, <B class=gmail_sendername>Justin
Wong</B> <<A href="mailto:lilwong@bu.edu">lilwong@bu.edu</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Well
that's the difference between you and I. I see the conflict as irresolvable,
and my personal safety is what I care about. It is often more safe for me to
be "disrespectful" than "respectful".</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org"
target=_blank>bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org</A> [mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org"
target=_blank>bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Anne Wolfe<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 05, 2006 12:14
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Boston Critical Mass<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [*BCM*] The
movement that divides us <BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
eternal circle. As the more you (and others) run the lights and are
disrespectful, the more you're going to get honked at, etc. Someone has
to take the first step - why can't it be you?</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org"
target=_blank>bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org</A> [mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org"
target=_blank>bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Justin Wong<BR><B>Sent:</B> 05 June 2006 17:04<BR><B>To:</B>
'Boston Critical Mass'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [*BCM*] The movement that
divides us <BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>"<FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>As long as I'm getting honked at,
told to get off the road, doored, barnstormed, flipped off, and whatever, I'm
going to run those goddamned lights."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000
size=3></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> ^^^
My sentiments exactly!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Justin</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org"
target=_blank>bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org</A> [mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org"
target=_blank>bostoncriticalmass-bounces@bostoncriticalmass.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Pete Stidman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 05, 2006 11:42
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Boston Critical Mass<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [*BCM*] The
movement that divides us <BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>I think these points are getting all confused. <BR><BR>Wreckless
bicyclists are one thing, and let us remember that there are wreckless drivers
of any vehicle. <BR><BR>Running red lights as a cyclist is entirely another.
It can be done just as safely as Jaywalking, which, let us also remember, is
completely illegal. <BR><BR>What a cyclist is, regardless of what some lawbook
says, is an undecided, unanswered question in the US. There obviously is no
universally accepted norm about when to cross a red light or stop sign, and I
would say the bigger tendency is to not act like a vehicle, but to act like a
pedestrian when crossing the road. <BR><BR>BUT none of this is important at
all right now. I think the whole argument is a huge distraction from the real
problem, which is cars. Compare pedestrian deaths by car to pedestrian deaths
by bicycle and you'll quickly see what I mean. <BR><BR>These ideas in the
biking community come as a result of car drivers in positions of power saying
to bike advocacy groups, "Well hey, if you expect to get us to teach drivers
about cyclists, cyclists better get their act together." and then activists
parroting that back to others and blaming cyclists for the fact that the
streets aren't safe. <BR><BR>IT"S A FALSE ARGUMENT. And it's divisive. I have
to hand it to the powers that be, it's a neat trick. <BR><BR>How it really
happens:<BR><BR>Any place you go that has laws that protect cyclists, bike
lanes etcetera, Bicyclists stop at the stop lights. Like Boulder Colorado for
instance. Bikes stop at all stop signs and lights, even 4-ways, BUT, in those
cities, when a cyclist pulls up to a full up four way stop, 3 cars and them,
the three car drivers immediately look to the bike to go, regardless of which
order they arrived in, an automatic bike right-of-way. <BR><BR>In that
situation, a cyclist doesn't mind following every law. The law and the norms
respect them. Bicyclists are recognized as having a stronger right of way than
cars. <BR><BR>It's not the weak one (bicyclist) who has to give first, it's
the strong one (car). It is a rule of nature that the weak one does not have
as large an effect on the system. If you want systemic change, you go for
changes that are strong, not weak. In other words, the bully has more chance
of changing the system than the bullied. <BR><BR>As long as I'm getting honked
at, told to get off the road, doored, barnstormed, flipped off, and whatever,
I'm going to run those goddamned lights. And that is something that is so deep
in me and hundreds of other cyclists who have grown to hate cars, police, and
road planners that no cycling advocacy group in the world could ever change it
without getting at the root cause behind it—cars. <BR><BR>Getting pissed at
cyclists who run reds is like telling people who are poor to quit complaining
about it and work for minimum wage, if they do they'll get rich. Yeah fucking
right. <BR><BR>-Pete<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Rachel Elizabeth Dillon <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:red@mit.edu" target=_blank>red@mit.edu</A>></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Hi!
I'm going to engage you (and anyone else) in discussion on this
topic,<BR>and I'm going to assume you don't mind since you entered into
discussion<BR>about it on a large public mailing list.<BR><BR>On Mon, Jun
05, 2006 at 07:00:28AM -0700, turtle wrote:<BR>> Boston Critical Mass
wrote:<BR>> > I stop at red lights, look all around me, then if it is
safe, I go. The right<BR>> > of way should be as follows: Pedestrians,
Powered wheel chairs, Cyclists,<BR>> > Vespas, Cars. (notice i did not
mention suv's). Pedestrians can cross streets<BR>> > any time they
want so long as it is safe, I don't see why cyclists can't cross<BR>>
> intersections at red lights when it is safe for everyone. <BR>>
<BR>> The problem with this is it's not reality. In reality, in the
Western<BR>> World, there are traffic laws that generally don't
descriminate against<BR>> different types of vehicle operators. Your own
plan for traffic law may<BR>> well be a good one, but it's simply not
reality right now. So, when you<BR>> disobey the actual traffic laws it
shows the rest of us that you have no<BR>> respect for others, and gives
bicyclists a bad name. Is that the<BR>> impression you are looking to
express?<BR><BR>Your second point here, about respect, is very good, but I
would argue<BR>that if 60% of cyclists are running red lights (number pulled
from an<BR>arbitrary statistic in the article, but it doesn't seem too
off-base<BR>from my experience), running red lights is reality; the law
doesn't <BR>define what is real or what is safe, it defines what is
legal.<BR><BR>To further the point about reality, in the past week, I was
stopped<BR>for running a red light in a pack of five or six cyclists on
Mass<BR>Ave (pedestrian signal, no one coming), but a coworker of mine
was<BR>specifically _told_ by a cop to run a red light two blocks down
six<BR>hours earlier. I'm not defending or attacking either action, just
<BR>emphasizing that law doesn't mean reality.<BR><BR>> If you really
believe that your traffic regulation is better, then<BR>> promote it to
everyone and get it passed into law, or at least accepted<BR>> by
society. In the meantime, if you have respect for others, they will<BR>>
have respect for you, both on the roads and in the political arena. <BR>>
Even if you don't agree with others, showing respect for their
beliefs<BR>> and traditions gives you far more power than discounting
them does.<BR><BR>This is absolutely true. But in today's society, lobbying
for legislation<BR>and behavior changes is often a full-time job and
requires more effort than<BR>many people have to put in. What, then, for
those of us (well, I'm being <BR>dishonest here by putting myself in this
group, honestly) without the <BR>resources to do these things?<BR><BR>I
could also go off on a rant about how cyclists don't get any respect<BR>from
drivers, or pedestrians, or police, but your response would be<BR>"Maybe you
should respect them, and then they will respect you" and I<BR>think you're
absolutely right. (Unfortunately I'm not sure that it works,<BR>but getting
respect by being disrespectful works even less, most of the
time.)<BR><BR>> > The interview paints a picture that all cyclists
blindly run red lights and<BR>> > aim for small children... <BR>>
<BR>> Are you sure? I got a very different picture from the article. I
read<BR>> that the author believes that only a small number of cyclsits
are<BR>> really abusive while most others, such as the author himself,
are<BR>> simply not aware of how dangerous their driving may be.<BR><BR>I
agree with you here.<BR><BR>> > Somehow I think there is an<BR>>
> over protective mother who's child was nearly hit by a bike, and now
she must<BR>> > start a crusade against all cyclists to prevent it
from ever happening again. <BR>> <BR>> Are you implying that kids
SHOULD be hit or scared? Should parents just<BR>> sit down and shut up
when illegal and dangerous behavior threatens their<BR>> kids? Should we
just chain our kids to the sofa until they are 16 and<BR>> can drive
themselves in armored vehicles to school and work?<BR>> <BR>> I'm sure
you don't really think that!<BR><BR>No, but our kids should be exposed to
and prepared for reality, which right<BR>now includes a lot of cyclists
running red lights. I agree with your point <BR>overall, which is the
attempt to change reality by encouraging cyclists<BR>to stop running red
lights. <BR><BR>> All cyclists, and motorists, and skateboardists, and
horseback riders,<BR>> and everyone else should be respectful of kids who
are using the<BR>> roadways. Vehicles of all sizes can easilly be quite
dangerous, and<BR>> the operators of said vehicles are ultimately the
only ones who can be<BR>> responsible for avoiding crashes and other
dangerous incidents. We are<BR>> the adults here... Well, there are
probably some younger folks on this<BR>> list, too, so maybe you aren't
an adult, so maybe you have an excuse<BR>> for not taking responsiblity
for yourself. Anyway for those of us who<BR>> are adults, we need to take
responsibility for our own behavior, and<BR>> that includes being
respectful of other people's rights.<BR><BR>I think most people who will
actually participate in a discussion on this<BR>matter believe that they are
taking responsibility for their behavior, and<BR>even being respectful of
other people's rights. I know I do. <BR><BR>> > If it were a car that
nearly<BR>> > hit a kid, there would be no crusade, just a woman with
a lawsuit against that<BR>> > ONE driver, not ALL car drivers.<BR>>
<BR>> I beg to differ. Have you ever heard of Mothers Against Drunk
Driving. <BR>> The message is, in fact, aimed at ALL drivers.<BR>>
<BR>> Also, as you may have noticed, it's not just a single incident.
It's a<BR>> trend. Seen not just in England, but in the US, too. I think
the<BR>> problem is that society, the government, and the educational
system<BR>> hasn't taken cycling seriously. People aren't tought that
bikes are<BR>> respectable vehicles on the roads that are subject to the
same traffic<BR>> laws as any other vehicle on the roads. So,
unfortunately, many<BR>> cyclists either don't know how to bike
respectfully, or see bikes as<BR>> symbols of rebellion against the
system. And non-cyclists, too, don't<BR>> get the message that cyclists
are the same as they are, so they treat<BR>> cyclists as unwelcome
outsiders on the roads. In either case, you get<BR>> dangerous
(unintentional or intentional) driving by everyone. The only<BR>> cure
I've seen is to promote the Same Roads, Same Rules, Same Rights<BR>>
idea. I, myself, try to impress upon my students the idea that
biking<BR>> is a normal and respectable way to travel.<BR><BR>There are
many potential solutions; yours is probably the most reasonable<BR>(as
compared to "burn all cars," "bike paths everywhere," "separate laws<BR>for
cyclists," &c.) though I'm personally not convinced it's as safe
or<BR>as efficient as the way people bike now. Realistically, cyclists are
not<BR>the same as cars. We don't weigh two tons and, under normal
conditions,<BR>ride lower than the speed limit and significantly lower than
the actual<BR>maximum traffic speed. Stopping distance, wear and tear on the
roads,<BR>ability to handle different kinds of construction (did anyone else
take a<BR>fall on the gravel<->pavement ridges in Porter Square a
month or so ago?),<BR>other things are all different as well. Though I don't
feel qualified<BR>to give an answer to it, I think whether or not cars and
cyclists should<BR>have to follow the same rules should be an open
question.<BR><BR>I appreciate the time you took to write this, though, and
the thought<BR>you've obviously put into it (and I agree with you in many
places).<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>-r.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Boston
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